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1964 Classic 660 voltage reg.

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vinny View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vinny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/22/2018 at 3:45am
If you remove the regulator there may be two diagonally drilled  holes under it. I mounted a radiator overflow bottle bracket to them without having to drill any more holes. It came off a Chevy tracker from the junkyard. 

Does that Prestolite regulator have a visible P/N on it?

Your Prestolite (or Autolite?) alternator will have a mounting ear at either end for the lower pivot. As the CS130 has many case styles maybe cruise the junkyards to find one similar to your alternator. On the 232 I use one similar to what an 89 Pontiac Safari has which comes with a V pulley but the mounting is different from yours. V pulleys can be swapped with serpentine type but shaft lengths may be slightly shorter. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/22/2018 at 10:11am
Even the prestolite systems were wired like Motorola - in fact, they were basically the same. My motorola parts books have the Prestolite diagrams and parts listings in them as do the AMC parts book. A prestolite regulator has the same pigtail as the Motorola.
The "AM" alternator was Prestolite rebranded.

But in this case, we are dealing with a GENERATOR.
So it will be EASY to find a proper regulator since as I recall, they used the GM system. I can confirm that later today, but a regulator should be easy and cheap to find. 
Even if it were an alternator, I HAVE regulators for them and for FAR less than 200 bucks. That's a crazy price. There's no reason to jump the gun on anything here.

I saw the pic of the regulator and no question, it's a generator regulator, mechanical, with hot battery lead on one side, the leads to the generator on the other side.

So, three choices - 
1. Find a regulator, and get it going again proper.
2. Convert to the Motorola system (I have regulators, can make wiring up for them so it's a simple merge into the existing wiring system and MAY have brackets as well - maybe)
3. Convert to GM - where brackets will have to be fabricated so as to not only fit the GM alternator but to line it up with the pulleys on the engine. 

1 is the easiest by far and would likely be just FINE (regardless of the nay-sayers) of course depending on your driving habits and so on. Think of how many years these worked out fine and some still do today. I've recently been to car shows seeing many cars that are not just show,, but driven around, still with original style generators. It depends on preferences, needs, driving habits, etc.

2 is the next easiest to do because you'd use STOCK AMC parts, wiring it according to stock AMC diagrams - since AMC used alternators in 63 and 64 as an alternative to the generator. My own 64 classic (my first car) had an alternator as did most of the first Ramblers I ever worked on. 
Regardless of what the nay-sayers here will say -the Motorola system is simple, reliable, easy to wire and worked on millions of cars - not just AMC. Toyota, VW, Porsche, and other car makers used them, as well as John Deere and other tractor makers. Imagine how many Motorola systems were used around the world and how many are still in use today. I even have a NOS Motorola alternator on the shelf from a Toyota dealership as proof they used them even after AMC switched. 
All you need is the bracket from a Rambler with the same engine, the alternator (which can be found without much trouble, regulator, and wiring (which I can make up)

Then there's number 3 option.
you'd need to fabricate a bracket to hold the GM alternator and position it in the right place to line up the belt. 
You'd need to wire it into your car - and please whatever you do - ignore those who will try hard to get you to wire it "one wire" system. GM never made a so-called "one-wire" alternator. They are all third party with regulators made by other companies.  A lot of people wired GM alternators with a single wire, and looped the sense back to the output, but it had its problems and was intended mostly for ag and industrial applications - NOT automotive use. It's a solution used by those who don't truly know charging systems and electrical systems. 

You can do any of the above, I listed in order of ease of doing.

Again, this is NOT a Prestolite system (some assuming here?) even if it were an alternator, it would most likely be Motorola. (honestly, I have yet to see a Prestolite system come through any shop I've ever worked in, including my own shops) They were used mostly on Canadian built cars - which means it's more likely to see one today than it was a few years ago because of collectors moving cars around, but still in the lower states, not at all common. 
And if it was, the wiring was the same as Motorola as proven by the AMC books and other wiring diagrams. Often the regulator was positioned differently, depending on the car/model/year (some had the Prestolite regulator on the FIREWALL.)

So - you have a generator, unless someone got silly and put an alternator on with a generator regulator - ouch, won't work well at all.
You can get a new regulator - and they should be available (be careful, the online listings for such things are goofy, you may need to walk into a store with your regulator! Often those who know what they are doing will look at it, and walk right back and grab one off the shelf because there were so few variations.
or
you can convert easily to stock Motorola system - and this is by far the next easiest way to go (some will argue, but trust me, been at this longer than almost anyone. I've worked on many hundreds for many people, and have converted so many cars and tractors and industrial applications from generator to alternators of all types I can't begin to count them. )
or
you can convert to GM - and we can help walk you through that but you will need to make a bracket to hold it and position it correctly. I can assist with wiring them, too - have done a few. 

the last two will give you better outputs at idle and in-town driving in most cases. Generators don't do well at lower speeds although top output is similar at higher RPM.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote westree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/22/2018 at 3:44pm
Wow, I am amazed by the willingness to share your knowledge gents. 
I look forward to being able to share information with others, once I get a better grasp of these things myself.

I am thinking that my needs for pawer are going to be very limited, so i'm happy, and would prefer to keep things original. So I would look at option 1 Bill. 

Any specific tests I can do to determine if the regulator is functioning properly with generator? Are they the same tests as with an alternator? 

Thanks again,

Wes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/22/2018 at 4:37pm
The regulator in the case of the generator is an electro-mechanical device. It has some coils and POINTS inside.
Unless a coil gives out, often you can clean the points and adjust these regulators.
Warning - be VERY careful and have the battery disconnected when removing and replacing wires. Otherwise you could damage the regulator and/or generator (frankly, same applies to alternators!)

Anyway, you might check it out and see if the points are burned, etc. and see if you can carefully use a point file (yeah, they made small files for contact points in the old days - for cleaning your distributor points)
These days I still have one but if it's not handy, a nail file (ask wife, first) or emery board (again, ask wife first) and clean the points up nice.
Beyond cleaning, these are adjustable, too - again, assuming the regulator isn't damaged - meaning bad or burned windings, etc.)
I can type up or scan the test sequences and how to check generators and regulators later (still winded from a few chores today, not over the respiratory stuff yet)
I have info directly from AMC, GM, FORD and so on, I'm fairly certain I recall these being of the Delco type. (there were several types used with A or B fields, etc.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vinny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/22/2018 at 6:27pm
Generators in 63, alternators in 64. Mine had the 4 terminal regulator and alternator. It worked fine for a lot of years. The regulator had Prestolite written on it but the number was unreadable. I've seen other Canadian 64 Ramblers with the same set up and the alternator is either Prestolite or Autolite, I've heard them referred to as either. Definitely not GM and definitely not Motorola. However I did run a Motorola alternator on it for a while and it seemed to work fine in that the light went out and the battery kept charged. Maybe the alternator works with a generator style regulator?

If you get the regulator working you should probably put brushes and a bearing in the alternator. $10 worth of parts and it will have a new life.

  


Edited by vinny - Jun/22/2018 at 6:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/22/2018 at 6:49pm
Autolite was a company by itself for years............ as was Prestolite. Amazingly, Motorola and Prestolite share a lot in common, as do Motorola and Leece Neville (incluidng wiring schematics.)

This would seem to be that weird Canadian combination of electro-mechanical regulator with an alternator.
I've seen the alternator (pictures) and yeah, it is an alternator. I'll say Prestolite based on the shame of the rear frame, locations of the connections, etc.
(I have all of the Prestolite literature as well as Motorola and Leece Neville and a number of NOS parts for Prestolite alternators, including stators, brushes, diodes, etc. and believe the bearings are also standard - still goofy from the meds the ship's doc gave me)

If my timing is correct, GM didn't sell alternators for use by others at that time and had very different regulator configurations as far as what connections where where.
It's for sure not GM, not Motorola, and again, by the looks of the rear, a Prestolite (if it was ever replaced, may be "AM" branded)  GM, Ford, Chrysler and others were waaaay behind on charging systems at the time of the 64 Rambler. AMC was ahead of the curve in some areas and this was among them.

I believe it - meaning this particular alternator -  to not be "the" original, although could be the correct type. Connections, paint and so on tell me it's been off or replaced. But the connections do match the regulator wiring (as vinny previously described)

This almost has to be a Canadian built Rambler.

The regulator for an alternator is more simple in that there is not a cut-out relay and there's no current regulation. Generators require current regulation as well as a cut-out relay to disconnect the generator from the battery when the engine is shut down. Alternators are self-regulating as far as current so that part is also not needed but generators will "run away" current-wise if not regulated.

Although I agree on brushes and bearings, I never ever put new brushes on slip rings of that age. If you've seen what I've seen in the hundreds of alternators I've had open in the last couple of years....... you'd also never put new brushes in without turning the slip rings and polishing them smooth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/22/2018 at 7:05pm
OK, now we know it's a fairly common PRESTOLITE for sure. The connections match, the shape and size, some of the tag info, etc. 
So this means that I could actually totally rebuild it, or if it was trashed and you wanted new, there are brand new replacements for that model Prestolite. The mounting setup sort of matches a Toyota Motorola I have on the shelf so I may even have something that would fit if that one is ever trashed or unfixable.

So there are a ton of options - I'd first try to clean and adjust and test the regulator you have and again, I'll get you the specs and info needed to check that things are working. 
This is actually going to be pretty easy.

Vinny was correct (my bad) it's a Canadian car with Prestolite alternator and mechanical regulator. Not a common combination. 
So if it suddenly breaks into speaking French - or utters "eh" now and then........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/22/2018 at 7:18pm
Here is your wiring diagram in a nutshell. this is generic, not AMC specific but the basics will indeed match.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/22/2018 at 7:43pm
For a more modern voltage regulator you may want to go to a farm or industrial supply place and ask for a generator voltage regulator.
Agricultural/industrial equipment were using generators for many more years then automotive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/22/2018 at 7:55pm
Generator voltage regulator will be different......... the number of years used in ag won't matter. The basics are the same. Been through all that over the years. 
Alternator regulators are wired differently and don't have current regulator circuits like generator regulators do, otherwise, frankly, how would a generator regulator be better or more modern?
Would love to know that one - both are electro-mechanical devices.

A new replacement, if one is even NEEDED, would not necessarily be better, they'd be made in China in most cases.
Unless his is BAD, I strongly suggest just cleaning and adjusting.
I've had them all open and worked on all types. One is no better.
A farm supply place will likely have generator regulators.
He needs an alternator regulator that handles the dash light - no current regulation. 

Besides, ag hasn't been using generators longer than autos............ I can go back to the beginning in either and show how each made progress. I used to collect antique tractors and restore 'em, as well as early gas engines made in the 19-teens. There was no generator on most 1930s tractors but there was on 1930s cars.
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