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258 w/ 4.0 head, or 4.0 engine swap?

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PavementPounder View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PavementPounder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/25/2009 at 11:15am
If you do the head swap, I'd run the 99-up 4.0 intake. It has equal-length runners.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeidrach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/25/2009 at 6:37pm
If I run the 99-up intake, is there a carb adapter? Aren't the injectors built intake on those as well? I want to run a carb on my car. Thanks!
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn278/zeidrach/100_3101Small.jpg
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TinMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/25/2009 at 6:55pm
Not sure on this, but if you're running a carb I think you'd want a carb intake (along with a cam that is designed for a running a carb). The fuel injected intakes were not designed to mix the fuel and air from the throttle body, they were designed for port injection.

Buy a carb intake and if you have to adapt the ports to match up then do so.

This is a 99+ intake for reference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/26/2009 at 8:09pm
The EFI intake works just as good as a carb intake with a carb. I don't know the exact procedures on converting one, only that some Jeep racers have been doing it. The 99 intake would be an excellent start, some large 1V like a Carter YF would be a good candidate for converting. Obviously the injector ports have to be sealed.

All that does seem like a lot when there should be plenty AMC/Jeep 2V intakes around. All you need is an 81-89 258 2V intake. Any Jeep with a 4.2L (258) will have one, and of course 81-83 AMC 2WD cars and Eagles. To mount one on a 4.0L head requires a simple notch below the normal dowel pin hole. The intake will rest on TOP of the dowel pins. The intake ports are raised roughly 5/8" above the old 258 ports, and that does the trick. You may need to make some steel plates and use them in place of the normal cupped washers used to clamp the manifolds on. I have some made from aluminum, but steel will be fine. A piece of 1" wide, 3/16" thick bar should do fine.  
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PavementPounder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/27/2009 at 11:13am
Originally posted by farna farna wrote:

All that does seem like a lot when there should be plenty AMC/Jeep 2V intakes around. All you need is an 81-89 258 2V intake. Any Jeep with a 4.2L (258) will have one, and of course 81-83 AMC 2WD cars and Eagles. To mount one on a 4.0L head requires a simple notch below the normal dowel pin hole. The intake will rest on TOP of the dowel pins. The intake ports are raised roughly 5/8" above the old 258 ports, and that does the trick. You may need to make some steel plates and use them in place of the normal cupped washers used to clamp the manifolds on. I have some made from aluminum, but steel will be fine. A piece of 1" wide, 3/16" thick bar should do fine.  


I just listed a few sets of these I had on the shelf.

http://theamcforum.com/forum/2bbl-258-intake-exhaust-manifold-sets_topic14922.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SnailPowered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/23/2010 at 1:39pm
This hasn't been posted on in a while but are any of these aluminum heads? Or can I bolt a fuel injection manifold on the stock head? After reviewing some of the specs on the stock engine I am thinking about building a turbo-charged 232 block. I definitely want to switch to fuel injection too because carbs and turbo chargers don't like to mix so well. I am also wondering about ignition options.  I just got my Rambler, I am 23 years old and I have been into the tuner scene so my first thought was to use a Japanese motor that came turbo charged...I am far too proud of an American to do that though! So now I want to take the stock 6 cylinder and beat them with it. Any help would be immensely appreciated!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TinMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/23/2010 at 1:48pm
None of the OEM heads are aluminum, however Hesco does make an aluminum 4.0L head, but as you would expect it is very costly and that much money could be spent in better ways on the engine.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SnailPowered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/23/2010 at 2:46pm
Well, I was thinking about just getting the stock head ported out as big as I can and throwing a good cam with no valve overlap to suit the turbocharger. I will definitely hold my head high if I can manage to at least run with the modern day cars running my 41 year old technology lol. Well, other than the brand new Haltech and modern fuel injectors lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/23/2010 at 8:59pm
A carb DOES work well with a turbo -- unless you're throwing over 25 psi to it. I'd think you would start with something less than that. I do understand the desire for EFI though, especially since you're used to dealing with it in turbo engines. You're right on that edge where you are the opposite of most of the old guys on here -- they came up with carbs and don't like messing with EFI! I'm one of the "old guys" at 47, but I don't like carbs a whole lot. They work well when properly set up, just like EFI, and can make as much and sometimes more peak power. But they can't do it ALL THE TIME. EFI can with minimal maintenance in comparison. But I'm getting off topic!

Big ports aren't necessarily the best. The 4.0L head has SMALLER ports than older 258s, but flow so much better due to a much better shape and increased charge velocity. With pressurization the shape isn't as important -- pressurize the intake charge enough and you will have velocity!

Check this site for the best six cylinder head info:
http://members.tripod.com/~Mojo_Page/Headpg1.htm
It's a bit dated as it only mentions why the author hasn't moved on to a 4.0L head (I think he has now). Note that he shows the exhaust port of a 98 head (I think it was actually 99 that the real small exhaust ports were introduced, not 98, but I could be wrong -- 96 and earlier exhaust ports are definitely a little larger). Note also how much the intake ports were raised to reduce the radius of the port runner  by noting the height of the alignment dowel for the intake on the 4.0L and 258 heads. The bottom of the port was raised 5/8" (about 1/4" for 87-90 Renix heads, and additional 3/8" in 91 for the H.O. head).

Your best bet would be to do a 4.0L head conversion on the 232. You would have to measure the pushrods and of course get hollow ones. I believe pre 72 232/258/199 pushrods would be the correct length, but they are solid. Other than that it's just block the triangular casting wash-out ports in the water jacket along the right  side of the head.

Easiest way to run a turbo is semi-remote. Keep a stock type exhaust manifold and run a pipe under the oil pan to the front right side of the engine. Make a bracket to support the turbo there. It's been done several times like that. If you're worried about heat loss wrap the pipe going under the engine.  You should be able to easily run 20 psi like that, probably more. Sounds like you may know more about turbo engines than I do though.

You CAN run a 4.0L intake on a 258 head, but can't use the 4.0L exhaust without modification. The center two exhaust ports changed a lot, so you'd have to cut the flange from at least those two ports and make a new one to fit the old style 258 head.  For the 4.0L intake you might have to notch the top edge of the intake ports for the injectors, but I don't think so since the older ports are a bit larger. You would have to grind/file the alignment dowel hole out or drill a new one to properly align the intake. To run a 258 intake on a 4.0L head a notch is filed in the bottom of the "leg" where the alignment hole is to move the intake up higher.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SnailPowered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/24/2010 at 12:17am
I said that a carb doesn't work well with a turbo because I am reading a book about how to tune and modify EFI systems and he goes through the functioning of a carb and all the problems that turbochargers cause with a carb. On top of that, I understand bar graphs on a computer screen and they're relation to my AFR better than twisting jet screws and changing jets. I had to deal with carbs  on my dirt bike and now I am all about running EFI simply for the ease and wide range of self-adjustability. Get the right sized fuel injectors to not lean out your engine and let the computer figure out how to make the AFR stay at a constant 12.5 (or so).

I want to port out because I would like to run higher RPM. I realize that idea is pretty much against the entire design of the AMC 6 cylinder but I have an obsession with really high revving engines. The sound of a Ferrari  V8 is like a woman...well, you know what I mean. :P I realize that there are limitations and I plan on pushing as far to the limitations as possible, until I hit 400rwhp. As my friend explained to me, an engine is just a big air pump and the power you can get out of it is a function of the air moving through it.

SO, Are there any after market heads that I could get that would have the exhaust on the opposite side? LOL, That would make things SO much easier for me with the turbo department. I am thinking that if all else fails I can get the intake and head ported out as much as I can (not polished, I plan on driving this to work sometimes) and then have the intake manifold and the headers/exhaust up to the turbo ceramic coated. I have seen Jeep turbo kits and I forgot about the ports being on the same side. Luckily, in a 69 Rambler there is plenty of room on either side of the engine to bolt up as big of a turbo as I would want.

I am also looking at the Hesco aluminum cylinder head for the simple reason it claims better flow...and a 30lb drop on one part installed sounds like an easy way to shave some of the pounds I am going to put back with my A/C (living in Arizona I never want to run a car without A/C hahahah). One of the problems is that it says you will need a shorter push rod? Does this still apply to putting that head on the 232? I should probably pay someone that knows what they are doing to do this crazy idea of mine, but the sense of accomplishment just isn't in it for me when I pay to get it done.

So, now that I have bounced around topic like a gerbil with espresso. In short, all recommendations are HIGHLY appreciated! I am going to need all the help I can get because I plan on putting all the wrench time in myself. I can't machine but I am confident that the rest of it I can manage. And all the broken parts along the way will tell the tale of my learning curve.

P.S. My other main reason to run the Hesco head is to use the 2001 and up distributorless ignition. the stand alone ECM I want to run can run a plug per coil, dual fuel injectors...and about as many other things as you really want to plug into it.


Edited by SnailPowered - Jan/24/2010 at 12:28am
1969 Rambler
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