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Javelin six rear axle swap

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pacerman View Drop Down
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    Posted: Sep/26/2020 at 4:35pm
Guys I am trying to get a six cylinder Javelin back on the road on a budget for a nice lady in our club.  It has an AMC 15 rear.

The pinion seal is leaking so I pulled the diff cover today and drained the pumpkin.  There appears to excessive backlash between the ring and pinion and there is actually what I think is excessive play in the pinion shaft.   I don't have the skills to rebuild this differential and besides the parts will be expensive.  I do have an extra AMC 15 rear axle from a 78 Concord.  Will these axles swap with no big heartburn?  

According to an old post here on the forum the Hornet family rear axle widths are the same as the 68/69 Javelins but I would need to make a set of trammel points to confirm that.  

So If they will swap, does anyone have an extra AMC 15 rear hub.  This will be a low performance car and the Concord axle needs one hub.  An extra Javelin six cylinder rear axle within driving distance of central California would work too.

Thanks,
Joe

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/26/2020 at 10:38pm
There's always backlash between ring and pinion. Why'd you take the cover off? It's unusual to have trouble in there unless it's out of oil or raced, etc. Leaking, sure.

The pinion seal is external. I dont know how easily that model is replaced (though I'm sure its the same as my 68 American). For that the driveshaft comes out the drive yoke removed, then the seal changed. Thats in the TSM I think.

If the tooth wear pattern looks good on the ring, even to a non-expert eye, seal it up and add lube and don't worry about that.

Some time in the 70's AMC switched from the simple stud-type leaf spring location to the Iso-Mount system. They are completely incompatible. Also spring pad widths change, shock mounts, etc. Check all that stuff.

About all that goes wrong with six cyl axles is: pinion seals leak, axle bearings wear (and groan), axle bearing seals leak, rear cover gaskets leak. And hubs need re-torquing every 25 years. (OMFG I just realize I haven't followed my own advice here on my 68, I will do that this week.) That covers 95% of failures in their first 50 years! 

The only way to be sure the axles will swap is to carefully measure the original and the donor. 

If you pull axles, might as well re-do the bearings and seals. And weld up the wear grooves int he brake backing plates and do those.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pacerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/26/2020 at 11:45pm
I pulled the cover because something I read said it was a good idea to avoid leakage while the seal is being replaced.  The gears look pretty good to me but the ring hear teeth are getting "sharp".  I wanted to check the pumpkin for evidence of wear anyway.   There is excessive backlash and I think the pinion bearings have too much play.  I will probably just close it back up with a new gasket, add lube, and let Pam know that it will probably need work and pay attention to it if it gets noisy.   Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/27/2020 at 9:55pm
I apologize for my tone there. I sound impatient! Sorry about that. I wasn't even having a bad day.  

Your sense of the state of things is pretty good, so it was probably warranted. Won't hurt to have that knowledge of the innards. 

Galvins has the pinion seal for the 'big nut' axles. An experience friend of mine with a shop just did his first (poor son of female doggy :-) Don't know if it's the same as the 64-up axle, but it appears to be the same design. 


"All the books" say Federal 5778 or something like that is the right seal; for 63-back, it is not. I just had one in my hand a week ago, fyi.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/28/2020 at 6:56am
The "big nut" axle was only used up to 65 on 195.6 and 199 cars. Maybe on 65 232 equipped Americans. Possibly on a few 66 199 equipped Americans, but generally after 65 it wasn't used. So no Javelins would have it.

The "Iso-Clamp" axle can be used without the clamps. IIRC the spring perch is different, you may have to drill the locating hole in the perch on the Iso-Clamp axle. Not a simple bolt-in, but it's been done. I don't think the perch has to be replaced, but I'm going from fuzzy memory here.

The Iso-Clamp is a metal cage with a big rubber bushing around the axle itself. It "ISOlates" vibration between the spring and axle, giving a quieter ride. If you swap the axle from a Hornet to a Concord you need the u-bolts and bottom plate from the Hornet. From Concord to Hornet you need to drill the hole for the locating pin out and remove the clamp and rubber mount -- IIRC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heavy 488 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/28/2020 at 10:34am
You can also place a few flat washers of the correct OD for the perch below the head of the spring center bolt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 303Y03 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/28/2020 at 1:13pm
When my 6 cylinder Javelin rear started making noise. I threw in a V8 model 20 rear for better braking.
Just needed to shorten the driveshaft 1 1/2 inches.
went from 3.08 to 2.87 for better gas mileage too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pacerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/28/2020 at 11:27pm
Guys, thanks.  I have the pinion seal and happened to see the correct AMC seal installer tool on Ebay so I bought it.  I will measure the backlash on the ring and pinion (just out of curiosity)  and clean up the differential cover and reinstall it and replace the seal and let it go for now..  I have already cautioned the owner that if starts making noise or leaking excessively again, don't ignore it.   Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve_P Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/29/2020 at 7:04am
I've worked on vehicles with insane amounts of backlash and they've ran for years like that and ran years more after. It's not something that is going to catastrophically fail overnite without warning. If the pinion moves front to rear, that's a problem- something loosened up. You may need to install a new crush sleeve. I'd put a new seal in it, make sure everything is tight, new gear oil, and tell her to drive it locally all she wants.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/30/2020 at 6:34am
If it doesn't "whine" while driving it should be fine for normal driving for years to come. I wouldn't go drag racing or do lots of burnouts (occasional of either shouldn't hurt), but it will be fine for now. I've never had a rear axle fail that didn't start making noise that you could hear when driving before failure, and they were always repaired before they failed. Mostly bearings though. Gears will start to whine when worn, and will run for a long time like that, shouldn't fail catastrophically. I've never heard of anyone breaking an axle shaft, pinion shaft, or ring gear that didn't have a high power drag car.
Frank Swygert
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