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195.6 OHV oil temperature and pressure...

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farna View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/30/2016 at 5:46am
"crunch bang" in the OD usually indicates a planetary gear shaft gave away. That will, however, jam the OD into direct drive only. So you just lose OD. If they didn't lose OD then the rollers in the free wheeling clutch (or something in that section) were giving up. I had one do the "bang", but don't remember a crunch... of course that was 40 years ago... plus the "bang" was the most obvious... sounded like a shotgun blast under the car! Noting to do with engine oil, but it was behind a 195.6... flat-head though...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/30/2016 at 7:06pm
oh sorry, i cluttered up the thread... the OD !BANG! was in the '59 Edsel i ran with in the LeMons rally. i'm running a plain old T14. it was an ancient transmission.
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/30/2016 at 7:26pm
Sometimes you have to trust your instincts. and your instrumentation.




i think i found the oil pressure drop (lol). bearing material melted back in place! above is cylinder #5 connecting rod cap. the rod side has similar pitting. a good demonstration of self-healing bearings though. the loose bits were trapped inside the pits, which are substantial. clearly clearances overall increased enough to leak oil. talk about lucky... 

i think that one lesson is, the pump is adequate -- oil pressure peaks at 2200-2400 rpm, which means the bypass runs open normally. this heating event increased clearances enough to leak oil and reduce pressure, but still maintain some flow, but now there was not excess volume to hold the relief open, and system pressure dropped. yet clearances remained close enough to not knock/rap when there was oil pressure -- it just started doing so when cold, for the first startup seconds without oil pressure.

here's what bugs me: though i was running hard and fast, this was a very carefully assembled engine, it had 55 psi of oil, the oil was new, synth 15W50, fully filtered. gone through top to bottom in 2010. insanely overkill cooling system, the cylinder head certainly never overheated.

i have to study conn rod lubrication in this engine. if it's simply inadequate for this then i'll replace with a 232. if the root cause is overheating the oil then i can cool it and at least measure it, and back off if bottom end heat has some other cause i didn't deal with. sensor bungs cost nothing to install.


i also pulled cylinder 2. that's all for today, i just had to peek... i'll do a full teardown this week and asses my options. here's number 2... it's not that great. to me this looks like oil film failure, but i'm no expert, i'll find someone to look at all this stuff.






the head and cylinders don't have any obvious problems. no scoring, pitting, signs of fluids in wrong places, etc. clearly i'll look closely.



Edited by tomj - Aug/30/2016 at 8:11pm
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vinny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/30/2016 at 8:27pm
Maybe it wants an extra thou of bearing clearance and a thinner oil? If a bit tight I (probably nobody else) would even try some .001 shim stock like they used to but with that small bore and long stroke it is still pretty hard to make a racing motor out of these.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tyrodtom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/30/2016 at 10:06pm
Just think how much shock it puts on the bearings at the top and bottom of each stroke with a 4.25 stroke, verses the 3 inch stroke on a 199 .  You've got about 40% more piston travel on a 196 than a 199 with each at the same rpm.
At 3000rpm a 196 piston travels 2125 feet, a 199 piston travels 1500 feet.  So that 196 piston is hitting some pretty high speeds,  that's got to be stopped and reversed twice each turn of the crank.
That's got to stress the bearings, and rings more on a 196.
 A lot of modern engines have went back to long strokes, check out the bore/stroke ratios on most new engines.  But they've got very tight bearing clearances, pretty sophisticated oiling systems, but usually thinner synthetic oil.


Edited by tyrodtom - Aug/30/2016 at 10:21pm
66 American SW, 66 American 2dr, 82 J10, 70 Hornet, Pound, Va.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/30/2016 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by vinny vinny wrote:

Maybe it wants an extra thou of bearing clearance and a thinner oil? If a bit tight I (probably nobody else) would even try some .001 shim stock like they used to but with that small bore and long stroke it is still pretty hard to make a racing motor out of these.

wouldn't it be the reverse of that? less clearance, thinner oil? low-viscosity oil i assume mashes into a thinner film, to prevent cavitation it would have to be a tighter cavity/gap.

it may be that 15W oil is simply too thin, also. to be honest i don't know what clearances this motor was built with, i either didn't know, forgot, didn't write it down, etc. hmm. won't make that mistake again.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/30/2016 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by tyrodtom tyrodtom wrote:

Just think how much shock it puts on the bearings at the top and bottom of each stroke with a 4.25 stroke, verses the 3 inch stroke on a 199 .  You've got about 40% more piston travel on a 196 than a 199 with each at the same rpm.
At 3000rpm a 196 piston travels 2125 feet, a 199 piston travels 1500 feet.  So that 196 piston is hitting some pretty high speeds,  that's got to be stopped and reversed twice each turn of the crank.
That's got to stress the bearings, and rings more on a 196.

that has been a major worry of mine. not only as you say, but have you ever PICKED UP a 195.6 OHV piston? the miserable things are HEEEEAVY. easily twice a 232 piston. 

i think it is significant that the CAP side got so hot... and it's biased to one side. at 2800..3000 rpm that giant boulder of scrap metal on the end of the rod is really pounding those skinny bearings. i am almost willing to bet that the worst damage will be at the same angular location on each rod bearing, something like 60 degrees from centerline, where the sinusoidal acceleration forces pound the oil film.

it's such a weird and specific combustion chamber there's not a chance of a substitute. i packratted a set of .060" over Silv-O-lite pistons i got years ago on ePay for like $20! need rings though. 

once i get the thing apart, all the parts laid out in order, photographed and measured, etc, i may bring this issue up on inliners.org. those guys do equally crazy stuff to really old flatheads.

this motor is one of the 64-65 replacement blocks. the pistons, being aftermarket as well, have 5/64 ring grooves. i haven't called Egge yet but i assume/hope that's what they sell...

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vinny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/31/2016 at 8:31am
When I built my 196 I didn't know it at the time but the main bearings were too tight. The crank grinder said he doesn't make mistakes like that so that leaves the bearings that were supplied by Egge. My mistake was that I should have got the machine shop to fit the bearings. Apparently you should be able to turn the crank with two fingers and it was much tighter than that. Anyway, my engine went together and after maybe 500 miles was running good when I removed it. I put in a 232. I gave it away and time will tell when it gets installed in another car whether it will last or not. My thinking in a case like this is with a thinner oil and not running it too hard eventually it would run itself in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/31/2016 at 12:40pm
you can be sure i will be paying a lot more attention to bearing clearance this time out!

if anyone can recommend a good quality machine shop in the Los Angeles area i'm all ears. i don't have that much cash but i'm willing to pay extra for someone to simply pay attention to the work.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/02/2016 at 1:41pm
i got a referral for Pete Fleming, in San Fernando Valley. waiting to hear back. any had him do work for you? he's allegedly very good. i hope i can afford him!

in the mean time shopping for parts. thinking about putting together an E-Stick oil pump, which has taller gears so more volume (though that's what did me in in 2011, this is a factory job :-). found everything i need except the pump drive shaft. i assume it's taller than stock. if you happen to have one laying right on top of your desk collecting dust...

it's amazing what you find poking around... so it looks like Melling made/makes a replacement 195.6 oil pump, model M-61. googling that part number, SummitRacing sells it?! even the picture is correct! gasket and all... weird...



it's still in a recent Melling catalog... filled with pictures. so i'll eyeball search to see if they ever made an E-Stick replacement pump. would be a nice easy upgrade if so. M-??? i hope...



Edited by tomj - Sep/02/2016 at 1:46pm
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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