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O/D transmission & Shifter Location

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Forum Name: Transmission & Drivetrain
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URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91604
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Topic: O/D transmission & Shifter Location
Posted By: CamJam
Subject: O/D transmission & Shifter Location
Date Posted: Dec/31/2017 at 11:00am
I really want to put a modern automatic overdrive tranny in my 72 Javelin with a 304. Do any of them (AW4,42RH,A500,700R4,TH400 etc.) allow use of the factory console shifter in its original location? I'm ok with using an engine adapter but don't want to hack up the interior. Thanks!

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'73 Javelin 360 (current project)
'72 Baja Bronze Javelin SST
'69 Big Bad Orange AMX (2018 Teague Heritage Award) SOLD




Replies:
Posted By: DaemonForce
Date Posted: Dec/31/2017 at 12:52pm
I don't have a console but will most likely adapt the electronic shift solenoid to the original warp style shifter mechanism when I get my 4spd overhauled and installed. I haven't spent much time on this issue but I'm looking at adapting parts from a Winters Shifter to make this happen.

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1971 Javelin SST
American 304 2v | FMX | AM20-3.31

1983 American Limited
Jeep 4(.7)L S-MPFI | 1982 NWC T-5M (4.03/.76) | Dana30IFS/35-2.72


Posted By: jpnjim
Date Posted: Dec/31/2017 at 1:41pm
The AW4 doesn't have a selector position for 1st gear,
gear shift positions being OD, D &1/2,
but I'm unaware if the spacing/dedents between the gears are the same from the 3spd to the 4spd auto.

I bet Farna knows Smile


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71 P-code 4spd Javelin/AMX
some Jeeps and some Fords


Posted By: Mopar_guy
Date Posted: Dec/31/2017 at 6:27pm
What rear gear ratio do you have? Most 304 Javelins have a 2.87 gear and with an o/d it would only turn 1866 rpm at 70 mph with 26" tall tires. At 60 mph it would only spin 1600 rpm. That's pretty low rpm.
As far as fit goes, you only need a 42RH and it will fit and work with the stock shifter. I had the larger 46RH in mine and it fit.


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" http://theamcforum.com/forum/hemilina_topic95889.html" rel="nofollow - Hemilina " My 1973, 5.7 Hemi swapped Javelin


Posted By: CamJam
Date Posted: Dec/31/2017 at 11:55pm
Thanks for the response Keith. Haven't found the markings on the diff and haven't checked it by rotating a tire yet, but I assume it's 2.87 as most of them are, as you say. Based on my tire diameter I figure 1,920 rpm at 70 mph, but with our 75 mph speed limit here most of the traffic on the Interstates moves at 80-85 mph. In any case, I'm prepared to change the ring & pinion if it doesn't work out.

Good to know that the shifter will work. Even if it requires some mods to the linkage that would be ok.

The trick will be finding a 2WD 42RH with an AMC bolt pattern. Lots of Jeeps of the right vintage at our local Pick and Pull, but none are 2WD. Even if there were, most would likely be 42RE or have the Chrysler bolt pattern.

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'73 Javelin 360 (current project)
'72 Baja Bronze Javelin SST
'69 Big Bad Orange AMX (2018 Teague Heritage Award) SOLD



Posted By: DaemonForce
Date Posted: Jan/01/2018 at 12:42am
Originally posted by Mopar_guy Mopar_guy wrote:

What rear gear ratio do you have? Most 304 Javelins have a 2.87 gear and with an o/d it would only turn 1866 rpm at 70 mph with 26" tall tires. At 60 mph it would only spin 1600 rpm. That's pretty low rpm.
As far as fit goes, you only need a 42RH and it will fit and work with the stock shifter. I had the larger 46RH in mine and it fit.

I have the 304 with 3.31 gears, non-od 3spd and fat 26.1" tires. It pushes ~2575@60 and 3K@70. The .75OD in the A340 would make this 1920/2240, which is far more suited for OD than every V8+2.xx geared counterpart. Keep the tall ratios in cars that can handle it, namely with the L6. I would suggest 3.08 minimum since it looks like I will be doing the same to my wagon.
Originally posted by CamJam CamJam wrote:

The trick will be finding a 2WD 42RH with an AMC bolt pattern. Lots of Jeeps of the right vintage at our local Pick and Pull, but none are 2WD.

You're kidding, right? The bell isn't the problem as it's interchangeable in the A340 and possibly another Toyota 5spd. The 4WD Cherokees net me lots of donor parts for the Eagle and few parts for the Javelin, considering how common/rare these drops are in the PNW. You're in the desert. You do not have this problem. Get some coveralls and heating pads then go out to Pull N Save and pick a complete donor from any of the following:
White 95 Cherokee SE (Nov 14)
Blue 96 Cherokee SE (Sept 28)
Blue 97 Cherokee Sport (Nov 01)

Make sure you pick the complete bell, torque converter, transmission and most importantly the slip yolk from the driveshaft before you begin tearing into the rest. To my knowledge there is no fixed yolk version of this transmission anywhere, so bring the pliers, punch and mallet to tap that part loose first or you'll be fighting it last. Other than that, U-Pull has some mystery 94 Cherokee that dropped Dec 12 but I wouldn't bother. I picked my A340 from a 2000 Cherokee this Summer 100mi from me in Lynnwood. Torque converter, bell, transmission and unnecessary shift linkages(studying purposes) at the till was $100 during their half off sale.


-------------
1971 Javelin SST
American 304 2v | FMX | AM20-3.31

1983 American Limited
Jeep 4(.7)L S-MPFI | 1982 NWC T-5M (4.03/.76) | Dana30IFS/35-2.72


Posted By: CamJam
Date Posted: Jan/01/2018 at 9:57am
Thanks, I'd forgotten that the bell is removable on the A340, which sure makes it a good candidate. I seem to remember that the shifter interface on the A340 was a hassle (perhaps for the reasons mentioned above?) unless you used a Jeep shifter, but I'll look into that. I read the sticky on it a couple weeks ago but at the time it seemed like it would be a bit more work than the 42RH. Time to read it again perhaps.

-------------
'73 Javelin 360 (current project)
'72 Baja Bronze Javelin SST
'69 Big Bad Orange AMX (2018 Teague Heritage Award) SOLD



Posted By: CamJam
Date Posted: Jan/01/2018 at 12:21pm
Since the AW4 shifter is electrical, it should be possible to come up with something that interfaces with the stock console shifter. Duplicating the feel of detents might be the hardest part. Alternatively, I could just keep the console lever for show and add a rotary switch, like the new Grand Cherokees have.

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'73 Javelin 360 (current project)
'72 Baja Bronze Javelin SST
'69 Big Bad Orange AMX (2018 Teague Heritage Award) SOLD



Posted By: CamJam
Date Posted: Jan/01/2018 at 2:48pm
Never heard of Pull N Save before as they're a couple hours away, but turns out two of those Cherokees DaemonForce mentioned are 2WD! Looks like I might have to take a drive.

-------------
'73 Javelin 360 (current project)
'72 Baja Bronze Javelin SST
'69 Big Bad Orange AMX (2018 Teague Heritage Award) SOLD



Posted By: CamJam
Date Posted: Jan/01/2018 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by CamJam CamJam wrote:

Since the AW4 shifter is electrical, it should be possible to come up with something that interfaces with the stock console shifter. Duplicating the feel of detents might be the hardest part. Alternatively, I could just keep the console lever for show and add a rotary switch, like the new Grand Cherokees have.

Well, it looks like the shift linkage to AW4 is a cable, not fly-by-wire as I had thought. Should also be possible to make this work with the original Javelin shifter, but chances are the indexing will be off. Easiest way to deal with this might be a new plastic overlay to change to spacing of the PRND21 markings, but I won't really know until I get into it.




-------------
'73 Javelin 360 (current project)
'72 Baja Bronze Javelin SST
'69 Big Bad Orange AMX (2018 Teague Heritage Award) SOLD



Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/02/2018 at 10:45am
But you can make it fly-by-wire... sort of. That's what I did. Works well if you have a console to mount the "shifter" switch where your hand naturally lies over the switch. You just need a rotary switch with at least four positions (Radio Shack used to stock a six position, that's what I have, just use four) and a couple big diodes. You still need the manual shifter though, the switch just replaces the computer. Put it in D then select which forward gear you want, up and down. You can use a separate switch for the lock-up converter, or wire the rotary switch for five forward gears -- no power to lock-up in 1-2-3, then 3+lock, and 4+lock. Won't be much change between 3 and 3+lock (about 200 rpm), but that eliminates the separate lock-up switch and makes for a bit better acceleration. Also means you won't stall the engine if you brake and forget to drop all the way to first before a complete stop. The AW4 doesn't lock the converter in first at all. If you leave the converter locked in any other gear and try to brake, it will be like trying to brake without pushing the clutch in on a stick... engine will stall. You get used to is though, and I rarely do that! If I forget, it's a simple matter to quickly "dial" down to first.

The issue with using something other than the Jeep shifter is mainly the length of the shifter arms. You have to get the ratios between the shifter arm and arm on the trans right. If both are evenly spaced and move the same distance from P to 1 (or L),then the arm lengths are the same. The detents are usually in the trans, not the shifter (at least on factory column shifters). So the detents may not align perfectly with the marks on the factory floor shifter, but it will work. You can make a new plate showing positions or just get used to the new locations. I don't have a selection quadrant on my column shifter at all. I just look at it as a theft deterrent. Never had anyone I let drive it (few!!) have an issue though. Occasionally they get it in 3 instead of D, but easy enough to notice and pop the shifter up 1 notch. The column shift pattern is so universal now that it's not an issue.


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: CamJam
Date Posted: Jan/12/2018 at 8:14pm
Picked up a 2WD AW4 transmission from a '94 Cherokee (ex USFS) at the Pick n Pull today.  There is a great video on YouTube of a guy pulling the same transmission from a Cherokee, and it was a lifesaver.  Would not have known about a couple of Torx heads and a couple of easily missed bolts had I not watched it.  If a picture is worth a thousand words, then a video must be worth 100 times that. I had a Torx socket set, but probably would not have taken it to the yard, so the video saved me a couple hours right there.

I wanted to get the tranny pulled before it disappeared. The 2WD transmissions are harder to find and this Jeep was in good condition.  Now I can take my time getting the mods made to fit it into the Javelin.

Slip yoke and driveshaft were already gone. I got the torque converter and bell-housing, but the flex plate bolts were being stubborn.  It was close to closing time, so I had to quit.  I'll go back next week and get the flex plate, shifter and the transmission computer.

The speedo on the Jeep said 66,000 miles, but I don't believe it because I looked up the VIN and it's been 66k miles for ten years now.  It's possible it was parked the whole time, I suppose, as it was very clean with ZERO rust.  It seems a shame when people junk nice cars like that.  Engines and transmissions can be repaired. It would be kept running for another 60 years in Cuba.


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'73 Javelin 360 (current project)
'72 Baja Bronze Javelin SST
'69 Big Bad Orange AMX (2018 Teague Heritage Award) SOLD



Posted By: DaemonForce
Date Posted: Jan/12/2018 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by CamJam CamJam wrote:

Would not have known about a couple of Torx heads and a couple of easily missed bolts had I not watched it.  If a picture is worth a thousand words, then a video must be worth 100 times that. I had a Torx socket set, but probably would not have taken it to the yard, so the video saved me a couple hours right there.

I seriously don't understand why this is such a giant issue. Am I just super conveniently loaded out with a miniscule 7-unit rubber strip of torx sockets? Takes up maybe five square inches of room in my toolkit and there's no reason not to have them when everything of interest in the yards is a modern upgrade riddled with obstructions and wrench monkey disqualifier traps that require security sockets or other specialty.
Originally posted by CamJam CamJam wrote:

Slip yoke and driveshaft were already gone. I got the torque converter and bell-housing, but the flex plate bolts were being stubborn.  It was close to closing time, so I had to quit.  I'll go back next week and get the flex plate, shifter and the transmission computer.

You're going to make this the full AUTO way? Oh boy...
Originally posted by CamJam CamJam wrote:

The speedo on the Jeep said 66,000 miles, but I don't believe it because I looked up the VIN and it's been 66k miles for ten years now.  It's possible it was parked the whole time, I suppose, as it was very clean with ZERO rust.  It seems a shame when people junk nice cars like that.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. Some things are mixed blessings and even if there's something dumb that puts a perfectly good looking Jeep in the junkyard, it's of no consequence to the shop seeing how they're always too dumb to close a sale with guys like me that walk in with $$$$ and ask simple questions like if it starts and has a key. They probably figure since it's a RWD Jeep it's never going to sell, and they're right. Nobody is looking for a RWD Jeep. This nets guys like us a cornucopia of updates and wiggle room to keep our cars from joining their ranks.

I've never been able to pull a flexplate from a Jeep engine in the yards. I don't know how you'll do it but good luck. It's easier when it's a flywheel and it encourages more confidence when what you're pulling has a lot of material. I buy flexplates new. In fact I have one sitting around right now boxed new. Not sure why I got it since I went the way of the manual with my wagon. Ermm


-------------
1971 Javelin SST
American 304 2v | FMX | AM20-3.31

1983 American Limited
Jeep 4(.7)L S-MPFI | 1982 NWC T-5M (4.03/.76) | Dana30IFS/35-2.72


Posted By: CamJam
Date Posted: Jan/12/2018 at 9:54pm
Wow... never checked the price on new flex plates until now, but at under $40 at Summit there's no sense in messing with pulling the old one (except maybe for the bolts?)

EDIT:  Under $40 was for the 4.2L.  $75 is best price I've found for the 4L so might be worth getting the old one if I can bust it loose.


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'73 Javelin 360 (current project)
'72 Baja Bronze Javelin SST
'69 Big Bad Orange AMX (2018 Teague Heritage Award) SOLD



Posted By: jpnjim
Date Posted: Jan/12/2018 at 10:26pm
Glad to see you're going AW4,
they're really great transmissions,

and yea those male torx on the front of the bell pattern were some AMC/Jeep engineer's idea of a practical joke on AMC guys LOL

I think I hammered a 3/8" or something on there the first time I pulled a Cherokee trans.

Are you going to go through the transmission, or run it after just a fluid/filter change?

Just curious,
btw their performance is pretty dependent on the TPS,
I had a bad TPS on a Comanche for years without knowing it.

Always just thought it's 4.0L was lazy.
Changed the TPS and it held the shifts back to the point where it would pull hard and chirp gears when I got on it Clap


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71 P-code 4spd Javelin/AMX
some Jeeps and some Fords


Posted By: CamJam
Date Posted: Jan/12/2018 at 10:38pm
I think I'll have a local tranny shop just open it up and inspect it.  If everything looks good I'll button it back up.  I guess the solenoids are the main cause of problems in the AW4, and they're not too expensive.

I'm pretty much following Rick's (SC397) sticky, except for the shifter.  I'm going to try and make it work with the stock Javelin console.

I'm also putting a T5 (from a 2005-10 Mustang V6) into my Opel GT, so I have plenty to keep me busy.

EDIT:  Forgot to mention that on the flex plate bolts, what I do to keep the engine from turning is put a pair of vice grips on a fan belt.  Once they hit the pulley the engine won't turn. 


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'73 Javelin 360 (current project)
'72 Baja Bronze Javelin SST
'69 Big Bad Orange AMX (2018 Teague Heritage Award) SOLD



Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 2:09pm
I wouldn't worry much about the AW4. Pull the pan first. If not a lot of metallic crap in the pan just clean it and run. The solenoids don't give much trouble. I've never had one go out. I've had trouble with shift computers, that's all. One reason I eliminated the computer. My first manual shifter was just three toggle switches. I got a factory repair manual and quickly found out that power to the solenoids was all that was needed to shift. I was having trouble with shifting (turned out to be the computer). Back in 2002 replacing the shift solenoids was a big expense -- IIRC around $700 just for the three solenoids. So I rigged up a three switch box to test the solenoids, bypassing the computer and shifting with the switches. Worked fine, but it was easy to get 2nd and 3rd gear shifting confused, as one solenoid is on, one off, for 2nd, the opposite on/off for 3rd (both on for 1st, both off for 4th -- third solenoid is for lock-up). Only intended to drive it that way a few weeks until I got another shift computer, but the second one I got from a junkyard only lasted a couple weeks before it conked out, and a reman was $800 back then. Drove with the toggle switches for about a year. I didn't mind manually shifting, and it didn't take much to figure out how to wire a rotary shifter to prevent confusing the gears.


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: DaemonForce
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by farna farna wrote:

I wouldn't worry much about the AW4. Pull the pan first. If not a lot of metallic crap in the pan just clean it and run.

This was not the case with me and this can get expensive fast. It's mostly to do with the design and how heavily involved everything becomes with this and the V8. I still have parts piled up for the rebuild process and need to get started on it soon. There are 6 different sets of clutchpaks for this transmission. By design, it's a LONG transmission in a compact case with the appropriate length for direct swapout of earlier transmissions.

In my case I need the output yolk, a replacement pan that isn't punched through(what is it with me and oil pans?), new filter, gasket kit and then the precious...Raybestos Stage-1 RCPS-45 clutchpak module and STMTOYTA47 steelpak just to get this reassembled to super spec.

Did you ever get the manual toggle shifter finished the way you wanted before going to rotary? I'm looking at a RADesign BAJA shift controller to complete mine but I'm worried about contamination killing the switch.

-------------
1971 Javelin SST
American 304 2v | FMX | AM20-3.31

1983 American Limited
Jeep 4(.7)L S-MPFI | 1982 NWC T-5M (4.03/.76) | Dana30IFS/35-2.72


Posted By: CamJam
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 6:14pm
Just roughly measured both the length of the 998 that's in the car and the AW4.  Looks like they're within 1/2" of each other.

I went back to the U-Pick-It and got everything I didn't get yesterday when I ran out of time.  The computers must be a valuable item as they seem to be one of the first things the pickers grab.  I finally found one, though it was on a 4WD, so I hope it's the same box.  

The slip yokes seem to be another hot item, but I finally found one on a '93 Grand Cherokee, which I knew to be the only year the Grand Cherokee used the AW4.  It's probably a different length than the standard Cherokee yoke, but that shouldn't matter as I'll probably have to fabricate a new driveshaft anyway, unless I get lucky and find one that's the right length.

I grabbed the Cherokee shifter and cable too.  Not sure I'll use it, but it gives me a starting point. Maybe I'll use some pieces of it.


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'73 Javelin 360 (current project)
'72 Baja Bronze Javelin SST
'69 Big Bad Orange AMX (2018 Teague Heritage Award) SOLD



Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Jan/14/2018 at 10:20am
As I mentioned, the shift computer seems to be the real problem area, not the solenoids, so hard to find isn't hard to believe!  Same computer for 2WD and 4WD. The Renix models (87-90) use a separate TPS (a stacked TPS on the same mount/shaft), later models just have one shared TPS for engine and trans.

I ended up buying a new yoke recently. They are available, about $100 from Jeep suppliers. I don't think the GC yoke is any different from the Cherokee, at least the replacement is listed for both.

The toggle switch shifter just isn't that practical except for testing. Even after months of driving I would still occasionally mess up the 2-3 shift (most often when down shifting, less up). No big deal most of the time, but if accelerating in an emergency situation and you go from first to third you could stall (I don't remember doing that) or bog... just not accelerate as quickly as you want to, which could be dangerous, and takes time to recover and flip the switches the opposite way, could be too late!

The rotary shifter works great! I recently had one of the diodes quit, but it has been in use since 2003 and 50K+ miles... I'm not complaining! I can find the wiring for it. Most of the Jeep schemes I've seen are mainly a switch to hold first gear. Some switch between the computer and manual shifting. I just wired for manual all the time -- put it in drive than you have to shift up and down. If I make another I'd wire for five forward positions instead of four, and eliminate the lock-up switch. 1-2-3-3+lock-4+lock. That would allow a bit better acceleration, and still good gas mileage. Only about a 100-150 rpm between 3 and 3+lock, so not really another forward speed. That's more to allow more converter slipping if towing (more slip is more heat, but also more torque multiplication) and better acceleration. I always experience a bit of a hard shift between 2 and 3 with the converter always locked (it won't lock in first, I always leave it locked) unless I let off the gas when shifting. Wired as five forward positions would eliminate that also. For street vehicle five forward makes sense, might not be as useful in an off-road vehicle. Of course you can leave the lock-up switch there as an over-ride to lock in 2nd and 3rd any time (lock-up in first is restricted internally, can't over ride that).


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Frank Swygert


Posted By: CamJam
Date Posted: Jan/14/2018 at 1:37pm
Thanks for the information, Frank. Good to know that the 2WD and 4WD computers are the same.

-------------
'73 Javelin 360 (current project)
'72 Baja Bronze Javelin SST
'69 Big Bad Orange AMX (2018 Teague Heritage Award) SOLD




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