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Sealing brake lines

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Category: The Garage
Forum Name: Suspension, Steering, Brakes & Wheels
Forum Description: What makes it stop, turn, and smooths the ride
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91812
Printed Date: Mar/28/2024 at 5:13pm
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Topic: Sealing brake lines
Posted By: scramboy
Subject: Sealing brake lines
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 6:42am
I'm making new brake lines for my Scrambler and I'm having a hard time getting them to seal. I really have to crank down on the sealing nuts for it to stop weeping and I'm uncomfortable withe the amount of torque that was required. Also I disassembled a couple of fittings and found that the cone inside the brass connectors is scored and flattened, is that normal for that type of connection? Thank you, Scramboy.



Replies:
Posted By: WesternRed
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 7:07am
What are you using to make them, are they double flares?


Posted By: scramboy
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 7:23am
Yes they are, what I'm trying to get at is the quality of the lines and fittings sub-par like everything else today. Do I have to order specific high quality components? Is the "Autozone stuff" just offshore crap?


Posted By: george w
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 7:45am
There's a lapping tool made specifically to solve brake line leaks. It's advertised in the Street Rod mags. It's called the "Surseat Line Lapper".
It's sold by koultools. www.koultools.com / 928 854-6706

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Long time AMC fan. Ambassador 343, AMX 390, Hornet 360, Spirit 304 and Javelin 390. All but javelin bought new.


Posted By: pacerman
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 8:02am
If you are flaring your own lines, you are doing something wrong if the new flares will not seal. Cheap or worn tool? Joe


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Happiness is making something out of nothing.


Posted By: scramboy
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 8:19am
Could be I used my USA made KD and a Mac flaring tool same result


Posted By: akimmet
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 9:31am
I always had trouble making good double flares until I got myself an inline hydraulic flaring tool. An inline flaring tool makes a much better flare. A hydraulic model isn't necessary unless you want to attempt stainless.

However, nothing will help a bad fitting. The cone inside the fitting is where the sealing occurs. If it is scored or flattened it won't seal without over-torquing the tube-nut.


Posted By: scramboy
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 9:54am
I've done some experimenting this morning I discovered that the factory flares on the straight lengths of tubing I bought seal adequately the ones I flared suck with 2 tools.They even distort the cone inside the fitting.I realize I may need a new flaring tool, what's a good one to get?


Posted By: garweb3
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 10:19am
I bought mine from Eastwood.It works fine and I didn't have any leaks.

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1974 Javelin AMX
1980 Spirit AMX
1987 Jeep Comanche Sportruck


Posted By: POWERSTROKER7.3
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 11:25am
I use a OTC brake flair tool set, use a tube cut tool for nice straight cuts and a fine tooth hand file for a good bevel on the end, then I lube the mandrel and cone before I proceed to make the double flair. Works every time for me. I've gotten better over the years of making my own brake lines, practice helps alot.


Posted By: mstrcrftr
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 12:41pm
having done a ton of stainless lines, i have found that putting a slight bevel on the inside of the line will allow the tool to flare the end much better.  a dremel tool works well for this.  just dont over do it.


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 12:53pm
I've had nothing but trouble with stainless and figure there's no need for it since the originals lasted over 40 years and if one flushes the system every-other year like the brake companies recommend, the modern lines will last longer than 40 years.

The stainless I bought for my 70 took ungodly force to seal and I still don't totally trust 'em.
They were pre-bent/pre-formed, pre-flared.
On one of the lines - it was TOO LONG (so much for perfect fit replacements from the vendors) and I had to cut and reflare the end. That didn't work out too bad - but it still takes crazy force to seal.

Modern lines are different material and some are even coated to resist corrosion - and with an occasional flush, they will last longer that YOU do.


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http://antique-engines.com" rel="nofollow - http://antique-engines.com


Posted By: Red Devil
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 3:37pm
Unless you're doing a 100% correct restoration, suggest copper-nickel lines.   They cost more than steel but are easier to form and flare, seal better and are almost as corrosion resistant as stainless.   Bulk line is available at most automotive parts places, including on-line stores like Summit and Jegs.  

Hope this helps, RD 



Posted By: tufcj
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 5:23pm
I have one of the Eastwood flaring tools also.  It's easy to make great flares, but only on the bench.  I got the 37* dies also so I can couple to AN fittings too.   I built all of the fuel and brake lines for my 67.  I also use this deburring tool from Eastwood to get a better flare.

https://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-tubing-deburring-tool.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-tubing-deburring-tool.html

Bob
tufcj


-------------
69 AMX
74 Javelin AMX
67 Rogue

If you need a tool and don't buy it...
you'll eventually pay for it...
and not have it.
Henry Ford


Posted By: WesternRed
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 6:22pm
I have the an Eastwood style faring tool as well, not cheap, but you can't go wrong:

%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftYuP-5jj4o


Posted By: billd
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 7:40pm
 The cone of the component (ie. the cone shaped part inside the master cylinder, wheel cylinder etc.) and the flare of the tube - the inside part -  is what seal the connection. The tube nut only holds the flare to the seat.  The inside of a tube is often rough and a double-flare presents the smoother outside of the tube, plus you have the extra material to convey the force more evenly (helps account for any differences in the wall of the tube, the weld area of the tube and so on)

SAE automotive fittings are flared at 45 degrees (although there are also 37 degree SAE flares, we aren't dealing with those here)
The inside of the nut has a 45 degree angle, the flare has a 45 degree angle but the fitting inside, for example, a master cylinder or wheel cylinder, has a 42 degree angle - and that's what helps force the seal - it's like when you create a difference between valve face and valve seats.
If you have trouble, try loosening the fitting and tightening it a few times, force things.
I did and it still took a lot of effort..... but it's worth a shot.



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Posted By: jpnjim
Date Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by Red Devil Red Devil wrote:

Unless you're doing a 100% correct restoration, suggest copper-nickel lines.   They cost more than steel but are easier to form and flare, seal better and are almost as corrosion resistant as stainless.   Bulk line is available at most automotive parts places, including on-line stores like Summit and Jegs.  

Hope this helps, RD 


I just did some of these in my Javelin and was very happy with how easy they flared.

I never did stainless, but even with the old steel lines I would normally have to tighten down a C-clamp around the brake clamp to keep the lines from slipping back as I flared them.

I would do nickle-copper or would buy premade stainless.

Not sure if heating the lines would help any?


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71 P-code 4spd Javelin/AMX
some Jeeps and some Fords


Posted By: Mopar_guy
Date Posted: Jan/14/2018 at 7:04am
Originally posted by Red Devil Red Devil wrote:

Unless you're doing a 100% correct restoration, suggest copper-nickel lines.   They cost more than steel but are easier to form and flare, seal better and are almost as corrosion resistant as stainless.   Bulk line is available at most automotive parts places, including on-line stores like Summit and Jegs.  

Hope this helps, RD 


X2  With a bender and a decent flaring tool, you can mimic the stock lines pretty close without the expense of stainless. I've done pre bent stainless before and even those were a pita to get a few of the flares to seal.


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" http://theamcforum.com/forum/hemilina_topic95889.html" rel="nofollow - Hemilina " My 1973, 5.7 Hemi swapped Javelin


Posted By: akimmet
Date Posted: Jan/14/2018 at 10:37am
I have a Mastercool 41475. It is a little expensive, but dose an excellent job. I haven't had to deal with a bad flare ever since I have gotten it. This flaring tool can even do more modern flares such as push-lock and GM o-ring.

The Eastwood 25304 is a little cheaper and has a good reputation, it is just a little more bulky to use. You need to mount it in a vice, while the Mastercool is self-contained.

The Cal Van tool 164 is even cheaper.

The have never had good luck with clamp style flaring tools, even the expensive ones.

Copper-nickel (aka UltraBend, Cuniform, & NiCopp) is safe to use for brake lines. Not to be confused with regular copper lines, which should never be used for brake lines.


Posted By: scramboy
Date Posted: Jan/14/2018 at 8:21pm
I ordered some nicopp lines and I've got access to a mastercool set. I did a comparison of flares and it's no contest. I suggest using a Mastercool set if possible. I did notice that after really cranking down on the sealing nuts it destroys the internal sealing cone on the female side of the component. This is important when you destroy hard to replace proportioning valves and safety switches. Keep that in mind when using a cheap flaring set.


Posted By: Raccoonman
Date Posted: Jan/15/2018 at 7:25am
If you have a hydraulic service business local to you, they can fabricate new lines for you copying the old ones. I have a Parker dealer close by and had a couple of lines done for my Jag, they worked perfectly. Not too expensive either.


Posted By: tomj
Date Posted: Jan/16/2018 at 12:09am
flaring tube is tricky and requires a lot of care. i have one of the cheapest-possible type designs, the two bar thing with half-notches, and a saddle type flare. the bars don't adequately clamp, the saddle flare cone is happy pressing at an angle, etc. and the plating gets pitted. even so i can flare tubes OK if i'm extremely careful.

for even good tools, the tubing needs to be cut perfectly square, and not a rolling blade type cutter, but a hacksaw with fine teeth, and filed perfectly square and flat. i de-burr the outer edge, "bevel" a few thousandths. i bevel the inside visibly but lightly with a hand 90 degree burr remover. and clean the tube after cutting. 

the shape of the tube determines the quality of the flare. you can't really overdo it, it's gotta be perfect. you're just pressure-deforming metal, and unevenness translates into distortion.

my crappy bar clamp bows, so i either put the whole thing in a vise or use a C-clamp. i do no flares under the car, it's just asking for trouble. its better anyway for a whole bunch of reasons to fit and test and fit and test and flare off the car, get it so the flare perfectly lands in the cone wthout any side torque or forcing. the nut should go on with two fingers.

if it needs a lot of torque to stop a leak there's a problem. my policy is to get it bent perfectly so the nut goes on with no effort with two fingers, then just *snug* it with the line, probably not enough torque.  brake cleaner and a rag get it dry and clean, then pressure test. if it seeps, snug a bit more. as billd points out, the two slightly different angles between flare and cone does the sealing. nicks or deformity will prevent it from sealing.

if the cones are bad that's the end of that. they have to be good or it will never seal right.

lol, i rarely flare my own lines any more, only for oddball stuff. i simply buy a bunch of pre-flared stock tube and connect with couplers. i've never had to use more than one coupler (even two seems kludgey). i use each bend as an opportunity to change the effective length. they look good when done, no big hoops or weirdness. i do end up with extra lines but they're on the shelf for the next job. it's just too inexpensive to buy pre-flared in a bunch of lengths and not deal with it. 



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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com



Posted By: maximus7001
Date Posted: Jan/22/2018 at 11:36am
Originally posted by POWERSTROKER7.3 POWERSTROKER7.3 wrote:

I use a OTC brake flair tool set, use a tube cut tool for nice straight cuts and a fine tooth hand file for a good bevel on the end, then I lube the mandrel and cone before I proceed to make the double flair. Works every time for me. I've gotten better over the years of making my own brake lines, practice helps alot.


What lube are you using?

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1968 Javelin SST

1997 GMC Safari AWD

2001 Daewoo Nubira SX (Winnipeg only model)

1997 Honda Accord EX (Canadian Model)

Winnipeg, home of the Jets.


Posted By: harry401
Date Posted: Feb/05/2018 at 5:41pm
Originally posted by akimmet akimmet wrote:

I have a Mastercool 41475. It is a little expensive, but dose an excellent job. I haven't had to deal with a bad flare ever since I have gotten it. This flaring tool can even do more modern flares such as push-lock and GM o-ring.

The Eastwood 25304 is a little cheaper and has a good reputation, it is just a little more bulky to use. You need to mount it in a vice, while the Mastercool is self-contained.

The Cal Van tool 164 is even cheaper.

The have never had good luck with clamp style flaring tools, even the expensive ones.

Copper-nickel (aka UltraBend, Cuniform, & NiCopp) is safe to use for brake lines. Not to be confused with regular copper lines, which should never be used for brake lines.


I also have the Mastercool and sprung for the AN fitting set as well. If you have alot of flares to do this tool is indispensable. I use only the copper/nickel tube anymore unless I have to splice a factory steel  line


Posted By: Kenosha62
Date Posted: Feb/06/2018 at 5:06pm
Over the years i have settled on pre-mades from the NAPA. As Tomj said they are cheap and with a little creative cornering it is easy enough to burn up a few inches. Thumbs Up


Posted By: Lyle
Date Posted: Feb/06/2018 at 5:13pm
Copper-Nickle if fabricating myself.
To get a good seal on any brake line I always coat the back side of the flare and the nut threads with anti seize compound. You don't want to twist the flare on the seating surface, that causes leaks. 


Posted By: limachine
Date Posted: Feb/06/2018 at 5:53pm
Try seating the lines after you flare them. WhAt I mean is tighten the new line normally, then back it off an eighth of a turn. Tighten again. Crack it again. Tighten again. Crack it again. Now check for leaks. You should be good. If working with stainless, do it 5x. Regular steel is happy with 3x.


Posted By: White70JavelinSST
Date Posted: Feb/08/2018 at 9:15am
https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Hydraulic-Flaring-Tool-Set/dp/B00063YR2I" rel="nofollow - https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Hydraulic-Flaring-Tool-Set/dp/B00063YR2I
Not currently in stock but here's the photo of the Mastercool Universal Hydraulic Flaring Tool kit
Mastercool Universal Hydraulic Flaring Tool Kit


https://www.amazon.com/KOUL-tools-SurSeat-Lapper-Steel/dp/B01D8ZXCXU" rel="nofollow - https://www.amazon.com/KOUL-tools-SurSeat-Lapper-Steel/dp/B01D8ZXCXU
pic of the surseat mini

KOUL tools P45 SurSeat Mini Line Lapper Kit For Use With Steel Brake Lines


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70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972


Posted By: 990V8
Date Posted: Feb/11/2018 at 2:08pm
Made a new line today in cupro nickel. Single SAE flare one end, double the other.
Used a tool made by ITC in India and marketed over here by Sealey.

The flares were good.
But, the mandrel pinches the tube a little and I have to dress it afterwards to get the fittings over.
Never mind. It's nice to be able to make one's own lines. Avoids that sinking feeling when the line twists as you start to undo the backnut.

What I need now is a tube bender. There's limit to what one can do with a thumb when there are tight bends near the end of the pipe.
Is there no end to building the toolkit, I thought after 50 years I was about done.

Ivor

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63 Canadian Ambo 990 V8 327
Lightweight V8 SIII
Shopping Trolley


Posted By: MARTINSR
Date Posted: Feb/11/2018 at 5:45pm
I know that I was blown away the last few cars I have done I got away with needing only like one flair in the whole job. There are so many different lengths and even then if you need one a length that isn't made you can put to shorter ones together with a double sided coupler and wham, there you go. 

I use a flair tool of my brothers, it's very old but a SnapOn or some other high quality tool.

Brian


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1959 Rambler American daily driver. And I mean EVERY SINGLE day.



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