the dreaded T96!

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   Hey, I have been sourcing parts for this T96J for about a year now and I am finally putting it all back together. I have a gap 0.025" between the rear bearing in the OD adapter and the rear snap ring on the output shaft.. My question is, do I need to worry about this? There is a selective fit snap ring in the kit. I picked the thickest one. The bearing is a press fit on the main output shaft. I can't imagine it contacting anything or moving around much but thought maybe someone would know better. I have had no luck finding a shim online.

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First_Gear Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/18/2010 Location: Mukilteo WA Status: Offline Points: 644	Post Options Post Reply Quote First_Gear Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: the dreaded T96! Posted: Dec/15/2018 at 1:01pm
	Hey, I have been sourcing parts for this T96J for about a year now and I am finally putting it all back together. I have a gap 0.025" between the rear bearing in the OD adapter and the rear snap ring on the output shaft.. My question is, do I need to worry about this? There is a selective fit snap ring in the kit. I picked the thickest one. The bearing is a press fit on the main output shaft. I can't imagine it contacting anything or moving around much but thought maybe someone would know better. I have had no luck finding a shim online.

First_Gear Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/18/2010 Location: Mukilteo WA Status: Offline Points: 644	Post Options Post Reply Quote First_Gear Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Dec/15/2018 at 3:12pm
	I still don't know how critical this is but.. After a couple hours I found hardened shims that will fix my problem here and eliminate any possibility of end play on the main shaft. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006U1V86S/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I am guessing that my problem stems from combining a T96J main shaft with a T96H rear OD adapter. (original was destroyed, impossible to find) The T96J main output bearing was about 0.025" thicker creating this gap. I will place these shims between the bearing and the shoulder it rests against and sleep better at night.

tomj Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7553	Post Options Post Reply Quote tomj Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Dec/15/2018 at 9:16pm
	hmm... if you can shim it -- now, at your leisure, no white-knuckle driving or tear-down -- do it. I probably would. but if I recall (erm, don't trust me here) the transmission output shaft location has no real lateral (fore/aft) location issues except one -- don't crowd the rollers between the clutch shaft and the output shaft (packed into the butt of the clutch shaft). all load is perpendicular to the shaft (gear torque) of course. I screwed up a T96 by apparently not seating the big clutch end bearing, the clutch shaft moved inward and ground the rollers and the tip of the output shaft into rubble. the next time I properly tapped the snap ring into the groove and all was well (until a few years later breaking the synchro). one check would be, assuming you have it together without shims, of you press the clutch shaft back, and the output shaft forward, is there any detectable binding between the two shafts. rotating by hand feeling carefully probably suffices. I just can't recall if that "joint" between the two shafts is obscured by the front slider. but that should be the only variable -- the clutch shaft fore/aft motion (assuming you don't make my screwup :-) should be tiny, just ball bearing play. the output shaft fore/aft motion is limited also by the rear bearing. the sum of those in worst-case needs to not bind the rollers. I keep the ground-up output shaft on my shelf of shame as a reminder.
	1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto 1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com

farna Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19686	Post Options Post Reply Quote farna Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Dec/17/2018 at 6:53am
	Just remember to NOT down-shift into first except from a stop/near stop (like 5 mph or less!) and don't try to speed shift the trans and it will last... assuming it's behind a 196/199... maybe 232/1V. The J model was actually made for the 232 in Gremlins and Hornets, 1970-71 or 72. Only used in bargain basement models. It does have bigger bearings and shafts, and some harder parts in it, but it's still a light weight trans that won't take much abuse. Run it as intended and it will last with no issues, start horsing around a lot and life will be severely shortened. The synchro will be the first thing to go though... so there will be some warning! OD can be a little less forgiving if you don't wire it like the factory. You can "straight wire" it with nothing but a toggle switch to the solenoid, but you MUST use the clutch when disengaging from OD!! To go into OD just flip the switch then let off the gas, it will go in in any forward gear when straight wired. You could wire the switch through the governor to prevent this, but I'm assuming that if you straight wired it you're about the only person who will be driving the car. If you just flip the switch off and let off the gas it will drop out of OD (you have to let off the gas to take the pressure off the locking pawl), but that puts a huge strain on the planetary gear shafts. So push in clutch THEN flip switch off. The factory wiring momentarily grounds the distributor, effectively turning the engine off for a fraction of a second, just enough to unload the transmission, but you hardly notice the skip in the engine - just enough for the OD to disengage with no torque applied. That's why it quickly drops out of OD. Without that (or using the clutch), one of the planetary shafts will eventually break and ruin the planetary gear set AND the big drum gear/output shaft as the planetary jams the OD unit. The only good thing is it all jams up -- it's just like OD was locked out -- won't leave you stranded. I drove one in my youth wired like that. Managed three weeks, mostly in rural areas, before the OD "exploded". Sounds like someone fired a shotgun or high power rifle under the car when it happens! Luckily I had a parts car with an OD and could rebuild mine -- and wire it factory the second time around! Edited by farna - Dec/17/2018 at 7:03am
	Frank Swygert

First_Gear Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/18/2010 Location: Mukilteo WA Status: Offline Points: 644	Post Options Post Reply Quote First_Gear Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Dec/17/2018 at 11:23am
	Thanks for the suggestions. I plan on returning the car to the factory wiring scheme. I did check that the bearings would not get ground up with the main shaft pushed forward. It looks like it will be ok but I am adding the shims also. Just waiting for them to arrive. The engine is a 232 with the carter 2bbl. scary about the snap rings flying off. I had to re-use the one in front of the sycchro unit otherwise the rest are all new..

First_Gear Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/18/2010 Location: Mukilteo WA Status: Offline Points: 644	Post Options Post Reply Quote First_Gear Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Dec/23/2018 at 3:54pm
	An update about this issue. One cannot place the shims between the output bearing and the shoulder of the main shaft. When the main shaft is shifted forward by the 0.030" shims the brass clutches drag when the transmission is in neutral. They must go between the bearing and the rear snap ring. The clutches would probably wear in but I would be greatly reducing their life this way. Not sure anyone will ever find this useful but you never know. I'm building the bomb proof T96.. All new snap rings, gears, clutches, shafts, bearings etc and its the J series so I think it will last.. The clutch rings are almost as big as the ones on the T86. If it blows up in 100k miles I'll drop in the T86 but trying to avoid having to mess with shortening the torque tube and finding a bell-housing for the time being.

farna Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19686	Post Options Post Reply Quote farna Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Dec/23/2018 at 6:33pm
	Well, I had a T96J with OD built years ago... 2000, I think. All new everything, even a new main cluster gear! Rebuilt the OD as well, with a new planetary gear set. $800 later I had what I thought would last a while. I put it behind a 4.6L stroker though. The synchro went in about 100-150 miles (the three little pop-up "dog clutches" broke), and I was taking it easy as I could. It did last after that, I just had to double-clutch or time things just right when down-shifting. I drove it like that for about 18 months then one of the brass synchro rings cracked, jamming it in second gear, and I was off on a trip! Luckily I was visiting a friend, so I just had to stay another night. We dropped the trans that after noon and took the top cover off. Could see the problem, so took the front bearing and input shaft out and removed the ring. I wasn't 100% sure if it was needed for spacing or not, but obviously not, as I drove it for another 6+ months while I looked for a replacement. Looked hard for a T-86 with OD (and TT and axle) or a Jeep 2WD five speed, but an AW4 almost fell in my lap for a great price, and I've been running that since. Since it stood up ok behind a 4.6L stroker (~250 hp/300 ft-lbs, NET power) it should last a lot longer behind a mostly stock 232.
	Frank Swygert

First_Gear Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/18/2010 Location: Mukilteo WA Status: Offline Points: 644	Post Options Post Reply Quote First_Gear Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Dec/23/2018 at 8:10pm
	yeah that's some serious power going into the already undersized T96. I've got a stock motor aside from a 2bbl carter carburetor which I got from another 232. I have a T86 with overdrive and TT adapter that I got for $50.00 but its got a blown first gear, cluster gear, and no bell housing or shift linkage. I will keep it around and keep my eyes open for parts though. I bought it knowing I would never find another. I hope that by the time the T96J gives up the ghost I'll have the parts to make the T86 work.

vinny Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jan/05/2012 Location: Calgary Status: Offline Points: 2837	Post Options Post Reply Quote vinny Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Dec/25/2018 at 9:40am
	The only problem I had with the T96 and it happened twice, was the snap ring holding the stuff on the rear shaft coming off and breaking a piece (tooth forward of the snap ring) off the shaft. I've never heard of anyone else having that problem but if I had to do it again, I think I'd loctite the piece behind the snap ring to the rear shaft. Edited by vinny - Dec/25/2018 at 10:03am

farna Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19686	Post Options Post Reply Quote farna Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Dec/25/2018 at 10:40am
	Generally you need to make darn sure the snap rings are seated all the way in the groove. A tap or three around the diameter ( especially the ends) with a punch or screwdriver is usually all that's needed. I don't know how loc-tite would work on a snap ring.
	Frank Swygert