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Tranny problem

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Amcwrencher View Drop Down
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    Posted: Aug/22/2018 at 1:28pm
New to the forum figured I'd start out with a problem. I have a 66 rambler classic wagon straight six, automatic, torque tube set up. The issue I'm having is the trany seems to puke all its fluid out after a long drive 30 miles or so. When I purchased the car it was being sold due to transmission problems. I took it to our local old time trany guy and found it was a broken torque converter and he corrected some other issues during the rebuild. I think the guy I bought it from had rebuilt it himself at some point and put some of the parts in the wrong order or something. Anyways all was well for about a year when one day it flung its fluid all over the bottom side of the car and wouldn't make it up the driveway. Rebuild was still under warranty so took it back,he said the breather was plugged, he drilled it out larger refilled with fluid and back on the road it went. However its happening again. I tend to think it's getting hot and boiling out. Sorry for the long story but maybe someone has had the same issue. Any idea for a fix would be appreciated possible swap for another model trany, not sure what would fit. This air cooled trany is black magic to me. Thanks


Edited by Amcwrencher - Aug/22/2018 at 1:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/25/2018 at 8:49am
Do you have the cover on in front? The air cooled trannys have a bell housing with a large opening on the right (passenger) side and a flat plate cover on the front between bell and engine. If the cover is missing that will cause the trans to overheat. Some take it off/leave it off on the mistaken premise that air flow will increase, but it disrupts air flow over the "fan" on the converter. The converter has a raised section on the back (trans side). Hard to describe, but it's about 1/4" tall sheet metal, raised from the back surface of the converter. If you have a standard converter without that the trans will over heat. 

Check for those two things first. Your trans may have provisions for an oil cooler. On the right (passenger) side there will be a plug near the back of the main case if it is equipped for a cooler. That was an HD option on some models. There may just be a flat where the rear fitting would be. There is a plug near the front on that side even if the rear plug is not there. That would be used to test for pressure.

I'm not sure if there is an internal difference when equipped with an oil cooler. Even if you find the two ports, I'd check before buying a cooler. You will need to get hose fittings and a length of hose. Install the fittings (barbed hose fitting should be good -- there isn't a lot of pressure) and loop the hose from the front to rear fitting. Run the car a short distance, just enough to make sure the trans is working as it should. If it appears to be slipping or not shifting normally there is an internal difference and you're losing pressure with the hose looped. If it works as it always has install a cooler.  It should be okay -- that front plug is from the internal passage that is after the torque converter and should be the "end of the line" before the fluid returns to the pan.
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/25/2018 at 11:41pm
also make sure you are checking the fluid with the transmission warmed up, and in NEUTRAL -- absolutely not in PARK! it really matters. NEUTRAL and parking brake.

it'll puke if it's overfull too.

i'm skeptical of a "too small breather". the little air-cooled BW auto is a tank. the only thing that will kill it is too much horsepower. i ran the same one for 21 years in a 63 classic with a 232, i personally put 350,000 miles on it -- no exaggeration -- two or maybe three full rebuilds in that time, but i towed a moderate trailer, 600 miles RT to burning man, many long distance trips, desert and mountain driving.

iut's fussy but easy to adjust the throttle cable. it's air cooled so don't abuse it. no AMC six will kill it. it's an old design, it needs more attention than modern stuff, like carbs and the rest of old-car stuff. its a fine product.

i don't see how any normal, or even most abnormal, driving around town will make it overheat. it gets "hot" in normal circumstances (it's something like 95% efficient; so passinth 50 hp through to the wheels 5% of that goes up in heat in the trans is about 2000 watts of heat (two big space heaters on full blast). it gets hot. if it smokes, worry. it won't smoke unless you're towing 1000 lbs climbing mountains.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Amcwrencher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/26/2018 at 3:54pm
It does have the cooling tins on the front of the trany I'll climb under and see if it's missing any that I hadn't noticed and inspect the torque converter for correctness. I do check the fluid in neutral and warm after running the trans through all its positions so don't think that is the issue. I like the idea of a trans cooler I'll check for those ports as well. Thanks for all the ideas I'll get back to you with my findings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/27/2018 at 1:59am
ok good on the in-neutral thing. i'd checked in wrong for decades!

the air-cooled trans has no provision for an external cooler. thats why it's air cooled. years ago i had a brain-surgeon quality trans guy (B & H Transmissions, San Francisco), he looked at drilling the body for that when it was out for repair, but he wasn't all that enthusiastic about the idea and so i never did it. i then drove the thing for 20 years.

is there a *particular* reason you think it's overheating? 

if it was just rebuilt, and now it's acting badly, 99% chance it's something that was done then. in any case the rebuilder ought to make it good, that's the point of the work, right?

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/27/2018 at 5:50am
The early M-35 doesn't have provisions for fluid cooling, but some of the later 60s M-37s and maybe M-36s do. I've seen an Ambo with 232 (65 or 66) with the air cooled trans and a liquid cooler as well. Was told it came like that -- HD option. Could have been dealer installed. 
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Amcwrencher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/27/2018 at 12:34pm
Rebuilder seemed good honored his warranty when it first acted up but is since out of warranty, trany runs fine shifts good dosnt slip just keeps making this mess. Not sure why it would be overheating I just know if I put around town take the kids to school short errands and such no problem. Longer trips hit the freeway for awhile and then some stop and go and I'm leaving a trail of fluid behind me. So it's either boiling out or the case is over pressurising or something I'll get it up on some stands tonight and see if anything stands out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/28/2018 at 12:55am
have you actually measured it's temperature, after around-town and after freeway? you can get $20 handheld IR thermometers ,they're very handy. i attached an old "mechanical" type water temp guage to mine, i found that the bulb thing was a nice slip-fit into a hole in a boss on the trans body, siliconed it into place and it was a pretty good thing.

250 or below you're fine. actual numbers will help a lot.

one time many years ago i completely burned up a 904 TOrqueflite through sheer stupidity -- i was bombing up a mountainside to Yosemite, in summer, V8 Spirit, bombing up stopped at the top, and oil pouring out and smoking. totally lunched the trans. it actually still worked but was all odd and funny (don't remember the details, it was early 80s). never did that again.

point is, there's running too warm, and there's burned-up hot. actual measurement will let you sleep at night, whatever the answer.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/28/2018 at 5:38am
Is it possible you have the wrong dip stick, or are just reading it wrong? Try running it half a quart (maybe even a full quart) low and see if that helps. If the fluid is coming out the vent at the top then it's most likely over filled a bit. Tranny fluid does expand as it gets warm, of course. Running a quart low won't hurt it.
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/29/2018 at 12:03am
yeah good point. i think this is likely, as farna sez, too much fluid.

it is definitely NOT boiling out. that's not possible -- boiling point is around 600 F! you will have so much smoke and probably flames and consternation from whatever GOT it that hot int he first place, it doubt the car would move under it's own power.

there's a pump, and the spinning torque converter, and a bunch of passageways and servos. it could somehow get air in it and foam up, but certainly it would drive very funny in that case. there's no way the use you mention could overheat a half-decent transmission, and again, you'd notice -- driving with the parking brake on full, towing 1000 lbs up a mountain, etc. a hole in the pan would leak it all out.

it's probably over full... which leads me to ask what should have been asked right up front. you wrote:

> Anyways all was well for about a year when one day it flung its fluid all over
> the bottom side of the car and wouldn't make it up the driveway.

what was the thing that happened right before that? any maintenance? add fluid?

was that the first drive after a year of sitting? a year ago, when parked, had it been driven enough to ensure it was actually OK when parked?


1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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