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Feedback carburetor -- revisited and modernized

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tomj View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Feedback carburetor -- revisited and modernized
    Posted: Apr/05/2023 at 11:57pm
My winter project is now in use -- a 1980's Carter YFA with feedback solenoid, installed on the 195.6 OHV in my 1960 American wagon.

There was never anything wrong with the carburetor itself, the problems were the terrible control systems. I made a new one using modern MCUs (50 years newer technology) and borrowed the "block learn" techniques from GM TBI.

I made electronics and wrote the code. Today I did my first drive with working closed-loop control of A/F ratio.

It's a heck of a lot easier to bring up than EFI -- I started with a YFA from a Ford pickup I bought on eBay, rebuilt, and jetted and tuned normally, not using the solenoid (it defaults to "off"). That sets the baseline for the software to tune in realtime, as you drive.

The feedback solenoid controls a calibrated air leak into the main jet's emulsion system. The only control is "enleanment" -- the mixture cannot be made richer, only leaner. But that's OK -- you tune the carb for "sea level", and faintly rich, then the controller enleans it going by the AFR map (hand made, more on that later).

If it fails, it's a carburetor that might run a bit rich but won't leave you stranded. Like the Holley Sniper Autolite 1100 I had installed. The main throttle body unit failed on me, I sent it back for free repair, but it took two weeks. Not acceptable for a daily driver.


Photos and videos, but not sure of the videos work yet. They will by the weekend.

I'll post code too. It's "Arduino" code, runs on a Mega 2560 with my own control board on top. Description on the link.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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MIPS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MIPS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/06/2023 at 10:41am
Oh this is nice. I've never had any time to analyze the Carter YFA but when I was doing my initial research on the CeC I did come across it and its mixture control solenoid. The project looks good so far!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sweatlock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/06/2023 at 10:58am
Definitely different and very cool. Although I don’t have an application for this system, I’d still be very curious to know more about it. 
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tomj View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/07/2023 at 6:16pm
It's working in closed loop pretty well now. I need to clean up the web page, I'll do that shortly.

It's a funny system. The carb does the hard work of doling out fuel, but the electronics trims down all the stuff you wish you could get at jetting in the usual way.

The center of the fuel map, where you spend most of your time cruising, can get really detailed tunings. Super-light throttle 60 mph cruise I can stretch it out to 16:1 AFR, and have it immediately enrich to 14.7 for moderate highway load, just 10 or 20 KPa higher, and hill-lugging at 13.7.

With the jet and a two-step rod, you get two ranges of light-to-moderate throttle adjustments. Now there's 50 cells worth.  I built a tuner/editor into the panel, so on a stretch of road you can throttle to a particular load/rpm spot, and touch up AFR at that one spot.

I'm thinking that on a long drive, long flat desert road type thing, I can tweak flat-cruise AFR such that manifold pressure drops (vacuum increase) for max power/mileage at that "setting" (rpm/mani pressure). Settings are saved automatically in onboard EEPROM.

It's a lot "softer" than an EFI system because there's the carb doing the main metering. The solenoid system is a bit slow to change AFR, unlike millisecond-speed injectors. But it's so nicely failsafe, and so easily tunable, I think I'll see what kind of mileage I can squeeze from it.

It would adapt to other cars pretty easily. A stepper-controlled carb would need different electronics but the control code would be the same.


1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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tomj View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/07/2023 at 6:23pm
Oh, I had a solenoid fail! The one that came on the used carb. I'd already bought a new one from feePay and swapped it on.

But I disassembled the old one, it had got grit in it and the little slug that pulses the little rubber flapper was sticking. I cleaned it all out, the rubber flapper was fine, no wear. I was able to reassemble it just fine.

Swapped it back. Then I got paranoid that these 50 year old things are gonna stick and fail. So I took the new one apart, thinking it might have old, stiff grease in it. Nope, they run dry, hard nylon well with a plated metal solenoid slug, a tiny spring, etc. Reassembled that one just fine too.

So now I know more about them. Carter/Weber did a good job making these end-of-the-world carburetors.

Also I wouldn't hesitate to use one of these things in a normal, non-electronic application. The YFA has small but nice improvements over the YF. Just as easy to rebuild. Just pull the wires off the solenoid, or retain the AMC "altitude adjuster". Mike's Carbs has all the parts you need.

Now I carry a spare float, needle and seat, and solenoid, fuel pump for long trips. Those are the only things even slightly likely to leave me stranded.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/21/2023 at 11:19pm
In the last couple weeks I got most of the bugs out, it's routinely in use and workign great. On a recent 500 mile trip out to the Mojave desert overnight trip got 21 mpg and best of all, AFR dialed in spot-on regardless of altitude. 13.0 AFR idle above 4000 ft and sealevel. Flat and level light cruise a smooth 15.5:1, sealevel or mountains.

Web page updated.

Lol, this is not and not gonna be a popular car mod so this will be the last post probably.

Next will be to add spark control, for a Duraspark type reluctor so I can get the high advance that makes super-lean work.


1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LakesideRamblin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/21/2023 at 11:47pm
I don't understand it all.  But that is some cool Flash Gordon Rambler stuff!!
LakesideRamblin
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73 Javelin 360
"If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month." T. Roosevelt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigbad69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/22/2023 at 12:53pm
Pretty slick setup! As always, tomj using his super-powers for good instead of evil. Smile

FWIW, I was always leery of electronic ignition when it first appeared in factory cars, for the very reason Tom has explained: a screwdriver won't get you back on the road. The factory systems seem to be very reliable, as I have never been left stranded by a failure.

The aftermarkets needs to better rationalize factory cost vs reliability.

69 Javelin SST BBO 390 T10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/23/2023 at 11:49pm
Originally posted by bigbad69 bigbad69 wrote:

FWIW, I was always leery of electronic ignition when it first appeared in factory cars, for the very reason Tom has explained: a screwdriver won't get you back on the road. The factory systems seem to be very reliable, as I have never been left stranded by a failure.

Points are terrible, require a lot of maintenance etc all well known, but yeah, they (1) don't often fail and (2) failures are easy fixes. But OEM electronics is pretty good now, failures and warranty repairs cost them money!

Originally posted by bigbad69 bigbad69 wrote:

The aftermarkets needs to better rationalize factory cost vs reliability.


Totally agree. Sadly I think there's so many weekend-only old cars getting this credit-card-debt addons, the concerns of idiots like me that insist on driving them every day aren't cost-effective to make and sell.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/24/2023 at 12:02am
In the last month I did two more revisions of the hardware, software's much improved. On Sunday I got back from a 2000 mile trip to Santa Fe NM (from Los Angeles), mostly 5000 and up. (Route out was https://ridewithgps.com/routes/42892462, except I didn't get to Pinon AZ, 25 miles of dirt in a thunderstorm seemed foolish).)

Did some fine tuning of the AFR map and ended up getting consistently a bit over 22 MPG, a total of 10% improvement over the previous Carter YF (a '72 Gremlin carb). Totally turn-key automatic no-brainer.

Mileage quickly drops off over 15.5:1 AFR (leaner). I get lean spikes (which I'm pretty sure is misfires). But I'm running a stock distributor, the old iron one that rotates, so I have terrible spark advance control. I need to do something about that...

I might be able to bump it up a bit if I work on the spark advance. Next project...

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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