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Q: Camshaft interchangeability 4.2 & 4.0

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knobbler View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote knobbler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Q: Camshaft interchangeability 4.2 & 4.0
    Posted: Jun/08/2023 at 7:10pm
Doing an unplanned engine rebuild (first time doing a full rebuild, and it's being done for maintenance/repair. Performance gains are nice if they don't cost extra, but aren't at all a priority) for my '85 Eagle. I'm just about ready to make the parts order and I'm considering ordering a stock cam kit for an early 4.0 (Melling CLMC809) instead of the stock replacement for the 4.2 (Melling CLSRC8). For reference, here's the table I referred to for specs on both, and to compare them against other OE & aftermarket cams:

https://www.angelfire.com/my/fan/Jeep4.0Camshafts.htm

I'm not really looking for any performance or efficiency gains here — to be frank, I'm mostly interested in the lower cost and wider availability of the 4.0 cam. That said, I wanted to see if anyone would mind giving me a sanity check and answering a couple questions I have before I charge ahead, since I'm not coming from a place of experience here.

1) The difference in profiles doesn't seem as though differences between the two are significant enough to demand stiffer/softer springs. Is this correct?

2) Do I understand correctly that the cut of the distributor drive gear between these early 4.0 and the 4.2 cams are the same? In other words, I'll still be able to use my duraspark dizzy with the 4.0 cam.

3) Did a mechanical fuel pump lobe remain as part of the design of the early 4.0 cams? It looks like they did, but I wanna check to see if I'd still have the mechanical pump option (whether I go electric or not, I'm kind of a belt and suspenders guy, so having both options would be a plus in my eyes).

4) Any general caveats I may not be considering or aware of? Far as I'm aware, I should be able to drop this in without needing to use different bearings, timing set, rockers, or any other adjacent parts. If I'm wrong, I'd love to know now before I make an expensive mistake and/or a mess that'll take a lot of work to clean up.

Whatever input y'all have to offer is welcome. Thanks!


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Heavy 488 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heavy 488 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/08/2023 at 8:23pm
If they have a dedicated 4.0 core to make the cam, then it won't have a fuel pump eccentric.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nudhistbudhist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/08/2023 at 11:18pm
1) just double check coil bind on your 258 head I think is the main thing. Your springs will be old, *maybe* valve float if you wind it way out but I doubt that's concern here

2) I believe they are same yes

3) I would strongly suspect no mechanical fuel pump lobe on any 4.0 cam, unless you found some real old stock

4) how many miles on your parts you plan to reuse? Chains stretch, rockers get worn in, springs get weak, bores open, bushings/ bearings wear. Roomy clearances make poor oil pressure, which will lead to this job being redone. Also, if metal is in your pan, expect to find it in every single bearing in the engine, even the cam ones you can't see

Not trying to be rude, I just don't want to see you in the same boat in 6 months

Greg

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote knobbler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/09/2023 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by nudhistbudhist nudhistbudhist wrote:

4) how many miles on your parts you plan to reuse? Chains stretch, rockers get worn in, springs get weak, bores open, bushings/ bearings wear. Roomy clearances make poor oil pressure, which will lead to this job being redone. Also, if metal is in your pan, expect to find it in every single bearing in the engine, even the cam ones you can't see

Not trying to be rude, I just don't want to see you in the same boat in 6 months

No, you're not coming across as rude at all! I don't want to be doing this all over again in 6 months, so I'd much rather get bad news or be told I've got something totally wrong now than discover it the hard way when I last expect it. To answer your question:

The odometer reads 107k and change, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were many more miles on it, based on how tired some of the wear components are. While I didn't find metal in the pan, I had originally thought I'd identified a crack in the crankshaft, which is what prompted me to do a full teardown and inspection of the engine, top to bottom. When doing this, I found that the aftermarket HEI distributor I was using had a hardened gear (despite assurances that this wasn't the case; live and learn, I guess), evidenced by the camshaft's drive gear having been eaten away to near nothing. It might have had 100 miles left in it before it would've been wiped out, if I had to guess based on amount of wear and number of miles I had been running it for. 

On top of that, the timing chain was sloppy as all get out, so I'm putting in a new set (thinking double roller is the way to go, based on the short lifespans of OE spec replacements people have been mentioning on the internet for the past 10 years or so). Harmonic balancer rubber was cracked, uneven, and squeezing out in places, already got a replacement for that. All the lifters (except maybe one or two) were totally stuck. Pretty much solid, really. There was some indication of very light scuffing on the valve stems (undetectable by touch, but a visible difference, like between a gloss and satin finish). Pushrods were fine — not even clogged or anything. Just had some varnish on em. They're still getting replaced, 4.0 cam or no.

That's a whole lot of words to say, even though I didn't find metal in the pan, it was clearly all throughout the engine (unless the cam fairy decided to magic away all those gear fragments as they were getting torn off haha). So because of all this, everything's been pulled apart, all the bearings are getting replaced — EDIT: including the cam bearings, unfortunately. I failed to use that stuff between my ears and didn't think about em when I soaked the block in degreaser, so that lovely golden/brassy bearing coating all got dissolved away. Very embarrassing and time consuming mistake to make. 

For the record, to anyone who comes across this in the future: LA's Totally Awesome is the best and cheapest degreaser I've ever used, but it will eat aluminum, zinc, tin, babbitt, and most other soft, non-ferrous metals commonly found in machine parts. Be more careful than I was!

I intend to reuse the following:

• Pistons (pending bore & clearance measurements, which is what I'm working on right now), wrist pins, rods, and crank
• Springs, retainers, rockers, pivots, bridges
• Oil pump (but it's getting a full rebuild if it passes inspection once I get to that)

And this is all on top of the tranny rebuild I was doing that kicked all this off haha!

I think I should probably look more into determining whether the rockers and pivots should or can be reused. They look okay at a glance, but I don't want to leave that to little more than a guess. I'm kinda iffy on the springs too, mostly because I don't have a testing tool and haven't yet had a chance to look into what options I might have to reliably test them. 

Usually I'd just replace the rockers, springs, whole shebang along with everything else and not give it a second thought, but all the engine work I'm doing was totally unplanned and I'm of fairly limited resources at the moment. Gotta find ways to cut expenses. At the same time, it's that "I'm too poor to buy cheap tools" thing, so I get that I won't be saving a dime if penny pinching causes the cash and work put into this to go up in smoke. 


Edited by knobbler - Jun/09/2023 at 5:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote knobbler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/09/2023 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by Heavy 488 Heavy 488 wrote:

If they have a dedicated 4.0 core to make the cam, then it won't have a fuel pump eccentric.

I was figuring that would probably be the case. Might vary by manufacturer, age of stock, etc. The product image Melling provides for that cam shows a fuel pump lobe, but we know how much that can be worth ("product may differ from shown" and all that). Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nudhistbudhist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/09/2023 at 11:00pm
I would also expect thrust side wear in your cylinders, comparing diameter front/back and side/side will confirm. I wouldn't be embarrassed about the evaporated cam bearings, it's kinda funny and they would have had to go anyway. The last thing that kinda sticks out is the lifters being stuck. We're they collapsed and wouldn't spring, or frozen in the bores? Check those bores real good. I'll try to remember to dig up my machine bill, I've recently had a 4.6 stroker bottom end machined, maybe it will give you a starting point? 
Greg

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pdok Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/10/2023 at 8:11am
If you're returning to near-stock, plus doing an entire engine's worth of machining and rebuilding, I'm always curious whether buying a short block is just a better option.  You'd get a warranty, at least.

With the costs of machine shop work and all the parts, you might be closer than you think in price. With some of the places, like Jasper, you could get a mild performance cam substituted in too.

I've never bought from jasper or any other short block re-mfgr, so no personal experience on that note.  I do know that (trustworthy) engine machine work can be ridiculously expensive...
76 Grem X 258/904,4.0 head/MPFI, Comp X250H cam, Hughes springs, Clifford header, serpentine swap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/10/2023 at 3:12pm
On the camshaft interchange question the answer is yes and no, let you have a read:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote knobbler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/12/2023 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by nudhistbudhist nudhistbudhist wrote:

I would also expect thrust side wear in your cylinders, comparing diameter front/back and side/side will confirm. I wouldn't be embarrassed about the evaporated cam bearings, it's kinda funny and they would have had to go anyway. The last thing that kinda sticks out is the lifters being stuck. We're they collapsed and wouldn't spring, or frozen in the bores? Check those bores real good. I'll try to remember to dig up my machine bill, I've recently had a 4.6 stroker bottom end machined, maybe it will give you a starting point? 

Yeah, most of the cylinders are a little out of round, with cylinder 1 being the worst out of the bunch. Thankfully they're all within the range given in the rebuild manual, so shouldn't need to be bored. Now that you mention it, it is kind of a happy accident with the cam bearings, since I probably would've ended up not thinking about the grit and left them in. 

Lifters were stuck open, and most of them wouldn't compress by hand without some serious squeezing (some of them fought back hard enough to not shift at all). They were a little fussy coming out of the bores, but they all came out with a little bit of effort.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote knobbler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/12/2023 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by Pdok Pdok wrote:

If you're returning to near-stock, plus doing an entire engine's worth of machining and rebuilding, I'm always curious whether buying a short block is just a better option.  You'd get a warranty, at least.

With the costs of machine shop work and all the parts, you might be closer than you think in price. With some of the places, like Jasper, you could get a mild performance cam substituted in too.

I've never bought from jasper or any other short block re-mfgr, so no personal experience on that note.  I do know that (trustworthy) engine machine work can be ridiculously expensive...

So far it's looking as though there's not going to be a need for any machine work to be done. Cylinders are all in range for taper and tolerance, but I'm gonna be extra sure about that and have my buddy come out and do a sanity check to make sure my desire isn't throwing off my ability to measure correctly. You make a good point about at least checking the price of a short block. It's not just the expense of machine work around here, but the lead time, too. Just about everybody seems to be backed up for weeks at present, which I'm not gonna begrudge them over if that means they get to keep the lights on!
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